Navigating Your 20s: Build Identity and Find Your Path with Dr. Meg Jay

Judy Oskam: 0:00

Judy Oskam. Welcome back to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam. This is a podcast about how people adapt to change and embrace creativity. On this episode, we're tackling an important topic mental health, identity and the pressures that young adults are facing today. Whether you're in your 20s or know someone navigating this phase of life, you're going to want to stick around for this interview. Dr Meg Jay is a developmental clinical psychologist who has spent more than 25 years specializing in the mental health and well-being of 20-somethings. She's on the faculty at the University of Virginia. Dr Jay is the author of the 20-Something Treatment A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age, a powerful new book that challenges the current approach to young adult mental health. This book builds on her groundbreaking book the Defining Decade why your Twenties Matter and how to make the most of them now. I hope you enjoy our conversation. I really enjoyed the book and I had it on audiobook and I loved that. What led you to write the book? I mean, let's just start there.

Dr. Meg Jay: 1:22

Well, we'll start there. Well, what led me to write the book was as you could relate to this is having hundreds of 20-something college students and, you know at the time, dozens, but now hundreds of 20-something clients in therapy and just realizing they were coming in with very similar concerns, questions. I felt like I was giving a lot of them the same answers and I thought, you know, somebody needs to write a book about this. I guess it's going to have to be me. But really what the book is about is just what an incredible developmental sweet spot our 20s are. I think culturally, for the last several decades we've sort of seen them as a developmental downtime, is just some, you know, kind of trivialize them to a certain extent. But you know, my books are about taking 20 something seriously.

Judy Oskam: 2:11

Well, and you say in the book that you really wrote this for them and to them.

Dr. Meg Jay: 2:17

Absolutely. Parents do love it and administrator, college administrators love it. But it is 100 percent written for 20 somethings because that's who I work with every day. They're my, they're my conversation partners, they're my audience and fortunately it's been really rewarding to see. I wasn't surprised, but I think other people were surprised to find out how popular it is. With 20 somethings. I think that's part of the trivialization that many people thought oh well, they don't care, they're not going to read it. No, 20-something wants help and you know I had a big, long list of people waiting to get into my office or standing outside of my door during office hours and I knew that college students and 20-somethings are looking for good information.

Judy Oskam: 3:02

Well, some of what you have included in the book too, and you explain how, developmentally, we go through school and we were giving such clear directives and I have said this for years and I tell my faculty K through 12, they are in a box. And then they come to college and we say get creative, think outside the box, and that's why they're asking us for direction and guidance.

Dr. Meg Jay: 3:26

Right, absolutely. Yes, I'm actually thinking about Judy, you may appreciate this of my next book being focused specifically on college, because even though I really, you know, delved into the 20s, which does include and doesn't include college in both the defining decade and the 20-something treatment, as you well know, college is its own thing and it's a huge change, going from the structure of high school to the lack of structure in college, and I think we're leaving it too much to college students to sort of figure it out, while they're paying a lot of money and trying to learn and grow, and so, anyway, I would like to do something about that. I think that's a really sweet spot trying to learn and grow, and so, anyway, I would like to do something about that.

Judy Oskam: 4:06

I think that's a that's a really sweet spot, as you say too. And I think one thing you know you talk about the idea that many young adults, they underestimate the significance of the 20s. And again we've heard it in the media oh, don't, don't worry about anything till you hit your 30s and enjoy your 20s, live while you can, and COVID didn't help with that. But I mean, why is there this perception that the 20s are sort of throwaway years?

Dr. Meg Jay: 4:38

Yeah, I mean, I think that's changing, I think partly because of the defining decade, but I think where it came from is adult milestones were pushed upwards for a variety of reasons we probably don't have time to get into, but that are probably pretty obvious to most people. But you know, whereas in the 1970s, you know 50 years ago, your average 21 year old was married and had a baby and a house and a job and you know so, adulthood had begun, now those milestones happen closer to 30 than 20. So that led people to kind of feel like, oh well, your 20s don't matter, it's just goof around time, and then you really get serious at 30 and then everything will sort, except what you know generations, early generations, to sort of experiment with this, including my generation Gen Xers found out is, if you start everything at 30, you might not get everything you want in time and you're missing out on a lot of really amazing opportunities.

Dr. Meg Jay: 5:35

to get in front of all these milestones, so that you're choosing partners better than you might have. You're finding jobs that suit you more. You're figuring out who you are before you make all these big decisions. There are a lot of advantages to the milestones being closer to 30 than 20. But doing something later isn't automatically better of doing the same as doing something better. It depends on what you do with the 20 something years.

Judy Oskam: 6:02

Well, talk a little bit about about your story, because you give the example in the book about what you did right after school and then how that led to conversations and job interviews and things like that. Talk about that a little bit.

Dr. Meg Jay: 6:15

Yeah, I think a lot of times people hear about my work and they misperceive that I'm saying, oh, you've got to go to law school the day after you graduate from college and if you don't have a briefcase in your hand, you're wasting your time. And it's really not what the defining decade is about at all. It's about how your 20s are an opportunity to do some things that you're never going to have the chance maybe to do again, and so to make sure you're using that time wisely. So my first job after college was working as an outward bound instructor and for people who don't know what that is, that's outdoor education. So I was taking teenagers down rivers and up mountains and climbing cliffs and all this stuff, and that's probably not the most ambitious thing I could have done right after graduating from UBA and, believe me, my family was wringing their hands about it.

Dr. Meg Jay: 7:05

But I was burned out from college, as many people are. I thought I probably wanted to go to graduate school. But I needed to grow up some. I needed to experience life and in my field, in psychology, they want you to have some life experience and not just be a 22 year old babe in the woods trying to do therapy with people. So anyway, this is what I did. I thought I would do it for one or two years, I did it for five. So for five years I didn't have an apartment, I lived outdoors, I worked outdoors and then when I, you know, pivoted to go to grad school, I was concerned as were, I think, other people that like, oh no, I won't be relevant anymore. But actually when I would go around to schools for interviews, everybody was sort of clamoring to interview the outward bound girl and, you know, people sort of saw the value in that.

Dr. Meg Jay: 7:57

So in the book I talk about identity capital. As you know what I tell college students when they're graduating Don't worry about what you're going to be forever, don't worry about. You know, this first job is not your last job. Your job is just to go out and earn as much identity capital as you can, just sort of collect your own personal assets. No one can ever take those away from you. And then you use them to get the next good thing, which has even more identity capital, and the next good thing and the next good thing. And then that's how it builds over time.

Judy Oskam: 8:29

I love how you explain that, because that really makes it very, I guess, take some of the air out of the pressure that I think that age group feels about. What am I going to do next?

Dr. Meg Jay: 8:45

and what's next.

Judy Oskam: 8:46

And we ask kids when they're little what do you want to be when you grow up? Well, who knows right?

Dr. Meg Jay: 8:53

Right, and I think the important thing is that not only do three-year-olds not know, but 23-year-olds don't know, not because they don't know stuff, but because most of them will wind up in jobs or fields or areas of specialty that they never knew existed when they were 23. So we're asking, you know, we're asking someone to answer a question they can't answer. So, you know, I think it's fruitful to have a direction of you know. I knew like, hey, I think psychology is my lane and I'm going to get in that lane and I'm going to do some things. I'm going to figure out you know which way within that I want to go. I mean, when I thought about going back to grad school or started grad school, I had never thought, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll be a clinical psychologist who specializes in 20 somethings and writes books for people. That wasn't a thing. So, you know, I just had to sort of get in the lane I thought suited and then see what I learned along the way.

Judy Oskam: 9:53

Well, and part of that is changing the mindset of that individual to think broader and to think have that growth mindset right and to think a little more open. And I love how you kind of talk a little bit more about what identity capital is and how someone can really kind of maximize that and name it and claim it, if you will.

Dr. Meg Jay: 10:15

Yeah, well, I like the name it and claim it piece, because what I tell you know, college students or 20 somethings when we start that conversation, is you already have more identity capital, exactly Realize.

Judy Oskam: 10:27

They always do. They're so interesting.

Dr. Meg Jay: 10:30

They'll say, well, I don't have any, it's not possible. What have you been doing for the last two, three, five, 10 years? Tell me about your major. Tell me about your jobs. Tell me about your internships. Tell me about your travels, your hobbies, something cool about you, something? What would your friends say? Your identity?

Dr. Meg Jay: 10:47

Capital is that it's really just our collection of, usually, experiences, but sometimes it can be just personal assets of hey, I'm a great conversationalist or whatever the case may be. That kind of make us who we are, that make us different from our best friend or our brother or sister or classmate. There's a great quote. It's I'm going to forget the guy's name, but he's actually a UVA grad. He's the co-founder of Reddit, his name is Read Something, and I can't think of it right now. But he said you aren't who you are, you are what you do and and I there's so much truth to that, especially when you're young. I think a lot of young people are trying to figure out who am I. Like it's this, like it's, you know, hidden under a rock somewhere, rather than well, you are. Whatever you've chosen to spend your time doing that. That's how people are going to understand you.

Judy Oskam: 11:49

Yeah, yeah. And with that goes relationships right and who we connect with and how we build our relationships. How important is that in the 20s?

Dr. Meg Jay: 11:59

So important. I mean relationships. You know it's funny people come into my office because they're very stressed about work, but then they mostly just want to talk about relationships. Of course it's all about the people, right? But you know there's there's probably three key relationships in your 20s and I don't know which one you want to focus on, so I'll just throw it out there One of course, is like who you're dating or who you love or partner.

Dr. Meg Jay: 12:26

You know that love interest, romantic piece One is friendships. Friendships are so important in your 20s because, as I mentioned, most people aren't partnering up until almost 30 or after 30. So your 20s are pretty lonely. That's when our friends you know we really need our friends the most. And then the third kind of relationship really relates to identity capital and it's what's called weak ties, where they're the people. They're not our best friends, they're not people we're dating. But there are these people that we used to know, that we kind of know that our friends know that we've lost touch with. That might help us get the next thing that we want. So they know about the new apartments, the new jobs, the new ideas, the new opportunities. And so I think a big skill for 20-somethings is figuring out how do I reach out to these people, how do I even think about who these people are? How do I get up the courage to see if they can help?

Judy Oskam: 13:24

Well, and I love that, and we we call that a lot of networking as well. But who do you know and what's who? Who knows somebody else who can help you? But I like the. The stronger word maybe is ties and weak ties.

Dr. Meg Jay: 13:38

Well, I'll tell you a little secret, Judy, is that I specifically called it that because 20-somethings hate the word networking.

Judy Oskam: 13:46

I know it's too corporate, right it's too corporate.

Dr. Meg Jay: 13:50

They think it means nepotism, they think it's, you know, like fake. And you know I don't have a network, but everybody has weak ties and so you know, I think, when you explain it to people, that what we're really talking about is crowdsourcing, you know we're talking about like hey, you know, I think, when you explain it to people that what we're really talking about is crowdsourcing, you know we're talking about like hey, you've got a problem, take it to the crowd. You have a crowd. And so who is the friend of the friend of the friend who is in the field that you want to get into? Reach out to them and ask like hey, how'd you do it? Can I buy you a coffee? That's really working. The strength of weak ties more than it's technically networking, because they're not really in your network?

Judy Oskam: 14:30

Yeah right, and they're already doing that through social media anyway, through Instagram or, you know, not Facebook anymore, but Twitch or whatever's the next thing. So, oh, that's great, that's great. Well, and you know, one of one of the messages in your book is the impact of career choices and the work experiences, and that goes back to the social capital, I guess identity capital, right. So how does social capital play in that with identity capital? And that might be kind of the weak tie deal.

Dr. Meg Jay: 15:06

Yeah, I mean it's just, I think, you know, when I was moving my way through my jobs I remember people said, would say similar to what you said many ago it's all about the relationships.

Dr. Meg Jay: 15:19

It's all about the relationships and that just always sounded kind of the relationships and that just always sounded kind of abstract to me. But I guess the older that I've gotten, the more I realize it is all about who you know, and I don't mean who you know in a privileged sort of way, as much as who you've met and who you've bothered to know, who you know, who you've tried to create relationships with. So you know, I really try to get college students started on this in college of go meet your professors, go to office hours, do some research. I don't care if you don't want to go to graduate school and you don't really need research, you need to at least have relationships with professors, with deans, with administrators. All you have to do is knock on their door and go to their office hour, and so for many young adults they only talk to people their own age and so they're not used to talking to people who are five or 10 or 15 years older and they don't always have to be a lot older.

Dr. Meg Jay: 16:19

I think you know more college students could benefit from. You know what you know as and what I know as near peers. So it's not somebody exactly where you are, but somebody like two or three or five years ahead. It's like, oh, they're not that far off from what I'm doing. Maybe I could ask them how did they do it? What should I do? What's?

Judy Oskam: 16:42

my next step. Well, and I know that I know some 20 somethings personally who are just sort of feeling lost and, I think, connecting and realizing that they're not alone in this- Absolutely, isn't that what a lot of your stories in your book illustrate that it is.

Dr. Meg Jay: 17:01

I would say a big part of what I do is normalizing. You know, I'm a developmental clinical psychologist and the clinical psychology piece is sort of the people think of that as like the mental health piece, the DSM, the sort of what's wrong with you piece, but it's the well-being piece, right, right, right.

Dr. Meg Jay: 17:20

But the developmental piece is all the all the normal stuff of like, hey, it's hard to be young, it's you know, it's hard to deal with uncertainty. The brain doesn't like that. It makes people feel anxious. Everyone you know it's normal to you know, have sort of a negative slant about the future. So I would say I spend a lot more time on the developmental end of things, about how normal and common all of this is, and this is true in my office. I see a lot more that's just really developmentally normal, common to be expected will improve than I actually spend with 20 somethings who have, you know, serious mental health problems that will never get better. So that's, that's one of the great things about my job. Is that? Um, it's great, right, people are trending upward and all I have to do is help.

Judy Oskam: 18:12

Well, and again, we often don't realize, uh, what all the good things that we're doing, you know, we don't give ourselves credit, I think, and at that age they don't even know what they don't know you know, and that's. What do you think of the term adulting, cause that's something that you know that age group is using a lot. I hate adulting and I don't want to be an adult. Right, right, right. What's your take on that?

Dr. Meg Jay: 18:37

I don't know. I actually heard that that people don't like that word anymore. So it.

Dr. Meg Jay: 18:48

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about. You know, actually I was just writing something earlier today about the university and you know, I think you know this, but college students today would not know this, that you know, up until the 70s college students were minors, that that, and they were basically like wards of their schools and schools made the curfew and schools made the dress codes and schools made the rules and like they were not legal adults. And that changed around, like 1971, 1972, and so you know, we keep. And then meanwhile all the adult milestones moved from, you know, the early 20s to now more like the 30s.

Dr. Meg Jay: 19:36

So there's always these shifting notions of like when is someone adult? When are they not an adult? What does that mean? What do they do? So all I know, judy, is that I'm generally trying to help people, you know, grab the baton of their own life, that up till now their parents have carried it, their schools have carried it. That's normal, and right about now somebody's handing it to you, and so I'm trying to help you figure out like, okay, what do I want to do with this? But that's a big shift and you know it's not the you know, 60s anymore. Schools aren't setting your curfew, they're not making you go to class, they're not telling you what to wear, they're not telling you how to spend your time, and so that's a lot for 18 or 20 year olds to suddenly figure out how to do after you know years of living a structured life.

Dr. Meg Jay: 20:46

And then when they go through the system, whether it's, you know, the university, community, college, whatever, or they go straight to the workforce, then they're in this world. That is expecting them to be an adult, right, and to know, and I, you know, actually I think of it less about again, adult, non-adult. And I, you know, actually I think of it less about, again, adult, non-adult. I just think people can't know what they haven't done before, obviously, and so you know, anybody at their first job is going to get a lot of things wrong. They're going to misunderstand how they're supposed to act or talk or you know whatever. And so that's just a normal part of life is you have to do that, you have to practice and do things to get good at them.

Judy Oskam: 21:19

Well, and then you know from your first book, it led you to the 20 something treatment. Talk about that and and what you're trying to do in that book.

Dr. Meg Jay: 21:29

Yeah. So the 20 something treatment is is specifically young adult mental health, and when I wrote the defining decade I had a mental health chapter in there, but this will tell you how much things have changed is. My editor was like don't put that in there, Nobody wants to talk about that. You know that's another book and you know he was right that nobody did want to talk about that at the time. And now everybody wants to talk about it and some of those conversations are better than others and so I thought, okay, well, it is another book. Now people do want to talk about it. So it's an entire book dedicated to young adult mental health and similar to the defining decade.

Dr. Meg Jay: 22:06

A lot of the messages are very normalizing. I do a lot of. You know research and stories around how common it is to feel depressed, to feel anxious, to feel overwhelmed, to feel stressed in your 20s, but that doesn't mean you're going to be that way forever. I change, hopefully, or challenge, the myth that your 20s are going to be the best years of your life and let people know that empirically, from a mental health perspective, I'm sorry to say, they tend to be some of the worst years of your life because they're so uncertain and people don't like that and it makes people feel anxious and stressed. But the good news is that your 20s really shouldn't be the best years of your life, that if your 20s turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong. Life should, and generally does, get better as you go. So you know the book is meant to be empowering, normalizing, relieving, and but it's it's very specifically about 20, something mental health?

Judy Oskam: 23:09

Yeah, and some of the stories you weave in there are stories where people will come in your office and just share their deepest challenges, right? Absolutely and then you kind of work it through like you said normalize that.

Dr. Meg Jay: 23:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think what many people will see reading it is oh my gosh, she's talking about me or I have that too. It's most college students and 20 somethings think they're a lot more screwed up than they actually are, and so I think when they see the stories of other people they go, oh my gosh, I felt that way, I thought that, and so it's really trying to kind of change the narrative on what it means to struggle in your 20s and what that means or doesn't mean for your future.

Judy Oskam: 24:02

I'm so glad you brought up the point that you're you know, your 20s, shouldn't? You shouldn't top out in your 20s. And please don't. We all know those people that that that would maxed out in high school you know like yes, peak in high school, peak in high school. You don't want to peak in high school, but you don't want to peak in your 20s either. So I think that's, but I think we hear a lot we see in movies about right 20s are just your.

Judy Oskam: 24:30

Be wild, and crazy and do all this stuff and enjoy your life, because you hit 30 and the door closes Right right, and it's so different.

Dr. Meg Jay: 24:40

The reality is in your 20s you will I mean not to be a downer here, but you'll probably have the worst jobs you'll ever have Of course tire the first.

Dr. Meg Jay: 25:12

You know major breakup is huge Number one precursor for depression in the 20s. So you're there's just absolutely no evidence to suggest that your 20s are going to be the best years of your life. I mean, I hope people have some fun, I hope they enjoy themselves, but the reality is is that all the data show that people become happier, healthier and more successful as they age. And I have never once met and I've been doing this now for 25 years a former client student person who said you know, once they got under 30s, I wish I could go back to my 20s. Nobody wants, nobody feels that way. So this idea that these are going to be the best years, the happiest years of your life just wrong.

Judy Oskam: 25:58

Should we think of them almost like? Personally, I think of middle school. It's like middle school it's like was terrible.

Dr. Meg Jay: 26:04

It's kind of becoming that. I think it is becoming that and that's okay. You know, and not every decade of your life can be amazing, and you know, the 20s has its charms, like every decade has. I remember when I, you know, had kids, somebody told me you know, every stage is cool in its own way, and this was when they were little. They were adorable, right, and you're thinking, well, what could be cuter than this, although it is rough having toddlers, and so everything has's. You're thinking, well, what could be cuter than this, although it is rough having toddlers, and so everything has its, you know, charms and its detractions, and that's true with every decade of life.

Judy Oskam: 26:42

Well, that's, that's great, and you know, you, you, you really talk about emotional maturity, and is that, is that tied with the same term, developmental? Is that what you mean with that?

Dr. Meg Jay: 26:56

Yeah, it's just I talk a lot in the 20-something treatment about that. It's normal to have a lot of highs and lows, that 20-somethings in general have more negative thoughts and feelings than older adults. For all the reasons we just said they have more to feel negative about. They also have less sort of internal ability to look at that and say, oh, you know what I've been here before, this is going to be okay.

Dr. Meg Jay: 27:23

By the time you're in your 30s or your 40s something bad can happen and your brain immediately can draw on the experience of like, okay, I've been called to my boss's office before and it's usually not what I think it is, or I've gotten through a breakup before, or whatever. In your 20s your brain doesn't have that kind of experience to grow up to draw on. So everything is catastrophic, everything is impossible, everything is the worst case scenario, normal, normal, normal. What you kind of have to do is help 20 somethings like weather, that that sort of catastrophizing storm that's going on in their brains, while they gain the experience that will ultimately teach their brains that very few things in life are as bad as you think they are.

Judy Oskam: 28:09

Well, and we do that with young kids, you know we help them learn and grow and we teach them how to do things. But when they and I think part of it is when they go off to college for those of you you know, listeners who are in college or something they're on their own and they're trying to make it on their own. So maybe, maybe parents think, oh well, they're doing fine, so they're not really doing fine. So they're not really doing fine, so they're coming to your office and talking.

Dr. Meg Jay: 28:36

That's what they're doing, right right. And many parents out there are thinking thank you, I so appreciate it. Somebody said you are doing the Lord's work. You are, I'm telling you, and I'm on a campus too. Well, you are too, judy.

Judy Oskam: 28:50

Yes, absolutely yeah well, I'm on a campus too, and there have been times when we have walked people into the counselor's office Absolutely Wanted to make sure they get someone to talk to. But it is fascinating when you talk to 20-somethings and you just kind of, if there's a way and you might provide some guidance here on what can we do to help these students and these 20-somethings see that there is a path forward. I always like to you know you start where you are, but how can we do that?

Dr. Meg Jay: 29:26

Yeah, I mean my very. You know, I'm really not trying to be a bookseller here.

Judy Oskam: 29:31

You know, my answer is please, please, read the books, because and reading both of them is key, because that first one, defining Decade, I was just telling a colleague of mine.

Judy Oskam: 29:44

We teach a class at Texas State called Career Professionalism and we do a lot of. We do some strengths building in there and we do some. How do you build your brand? But it's a lot of some of this and I just told my colleague, jenny, about this and because understanding more of this. Luckily she has kids the same age as I do. I've got a 26 year old and a 24 year old, so I'm right there with you.

Judy Oskam: 30:13

I see it but how, how else? What else can we do to kind of help them realize that we're all in this together?

Dr. Meg Jay: 30:21

Yeah, um, I mean, you know so, yeah. So I say read the books, not to benefit me as much as that.

Dr. Meg Jay: 30:30

It it's truly everything that I have learned doing this for 25 years and you know there's only so many people can make it to my office or can afford to see someone like me. And I'm really trying to make this so that anybody with 15 bucks or a library card can have all the information that someone with more resources might have, information that someone with more resources might have. You know, the other thing is talk to your friends that sometimes I'll have clients say everybody else is blah, blah, blah, everybody else is this, that and the other thing. And I'll say, well, have you asked them? Because I don't, that's not what I'm hearing from everybody else.

Dr. Meg Jay: 31:09

And so you know, to sort of be able to say to your friends like, hey, I'm really struggling with my job, are you? And so because you know, frankly, I don't think that the cure for young adult mental health is for everyone to have a therapist. That's not sustainable, it's not possible, it's not scalable. You know, if anything, I try to help 20 somethings have better relationships with friends or family or mentors. So I guess my short answer would be read the books or talk to people, and they don't have to be therapists, they just need to be people who care about you.

Dr. Meg Jay: 31:46

And they probably have some good advice.

Judy Oskam: 31:48

That's great. That's great. Well, I want to thank you for sharing your time and expertise. My pleasure Again. It's just such a really valuable piece of research that you've done here to really help us understand, and I think all college professors need to read this.

Dr. Meg Jay: 32:09

I agree.

Judy Oskam: 32:11

It's fantastic, but anyway, I just want to thank you for your time.

Dr. Meg Jay: 32:15

I appreciate that, and I appreciate what you do as well. So thank you so much.

Judy Oskam: 32:21

And thank all of you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast. It really helps us reach more listeners who might learn something. Don't forget to check out the show notes for links to Dr J's books and her TED Talk. Thanks again for listening and remember if you've got a story to share or know someone who does reach out to me at judyoskam. com.